Ashley: And then before we switch over, a few event logistics. First, closed captions and a transcript will be provided today by a certified realtime captioner. If you do need captions, you are able to turn them on at the bottom of the screen. Secondly, if you have any questions, please feel free to use the Q&A feature below. If your question specifically applies to what one of our lovely speakers has mentioned, our Q&A manager, Jacquie Kittler, will read it for you. All other questions will be answered at the end of the event. And, finally, if you are encountering any technical issues during the event, please either slack John Dawson or Ryon Waterman, and they will do their best to help you out.
Once again, welcome, everybody. I'm very excited to be moderating today's event. Without further adieu, let's introduce our speakers for this afternoon.
First up is Lisa Calise. Lisa Calise is the Senior Vice President for Administration and Finance and Treasurer for University of Massachusetts. She has been with UMass since February 2017. In her role, Lisa oversees the university's financial and operational department, which includes Treasury, Insurance and Operations, Budget and Planning, Enterprise Risk Management, Human Resources, Controllers office and the University-wide Procurement Services Team or UPST. Lisa was most recently the Chief Financial Officer at Watertown-based Perkins School for the Blind focusing on global services and education for those living with blindness and deafblindness.
Before joining Perkins in 2010, Lisa served at the city of Boston for over a decade, most recently as the Director of Administration and Finance and previously as the Chief Financial Officer and Collective Treasurer and Budget Director, where she implemented efficiency improvements and managed the city finances through challenging economic times. Prior to coming to Boston, Lisa served in the White House Office managing the budget as budget examiner.
A Massachusetts native, Lisa obtained her BA from Boston College, and a Masters Degree in Public Management from the University of Maryland. She recently served as a member of both the MBTA Finance and Management Control Board, and Mass DOT Board. She's a current member of the Eastern Association of College and University Business Officers Board.
When not fulfilling her many financial duties at UMass, Lisa enjoys horseback riding, skiing, baking, and spending time with her family. Welcome, Lisa.
Lisa: Thank you, Ashley.
Ashley: And our other speaker this afternoon is Dr. Nicole Melton. Dr. Melton is an associate professor and associate department chair in the Mark H. McCormack Department of Sports Management at UMass Amherst. She along with her colleague, Dr. Nefertiti Walker, founded and co-directed the laboratory of inclusion and diversity in sports or LIDS.
Dr. Melton's research focuses on diversity, inclusion in sports organizations. Within this line of work, she examines the antecedents of workplace or team inclusion and the subsequent performance benefits of creating such environments.
Dr. Melton has contributed to many scholarly articles and journals including, "When identities collide" and "The Tipping Point: The Intersection of Race, Gender, and Sexual Orientation in Intercollegiate Sports," in collaboration with fellow professor, Nefertiti Walker. She's also a founding member of the Collective by Wasserman, which is an international think tank that aims to raise understanding and visibility of women in sports, entertainment, and culture.
Dr. Melton earned her Ph.D., MS, and BBA from Texas A&M university.
Dr. Melton.
Nicole: Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Ashley: Welcome to you both. We'll start this conversation with some opening remarks from Lisa and then Nicole. Lisa?
Lisa: Thank you, Ashley. I'm thrilled to be here. I want to thank the DEIA committee for inviting me to participate in this event. I think conversations like this are very important for organizations, including organizations like the University of Massachusetts.
I thought I would start by just sharing a story which I think, um, being part of this panel has forced me to do a lot of reflection. It's a story about my parents who, both my mother and father, both graduated from college, from business school in the early '60s. They were both accounting majors. Upon graduation, it's actually a love story. They fell in love in college and decided to graduate early, so they got out of college in three years instead of four. When they graduated, my mother had a much higher GPA than my father, but in the early '60s, my mother was unable to secure a job in accounting or business and my father immediately got a very nice job with Hallmark Cards. Because of that, my mother started substitute teaching and spent her entire career in the teaching profession not because that's what she went to college for and chose as a profession, but she got channeled there after not being able to successfully get a job in business.
And as I think about how I got here and I'm clearly in a profession that historically has been male dominated, I do think I attribute a lot of that to my parents, who, growing up, would never let anything stand in the way of something I wanted to pursue, partly because my mother, who ended up having a very successful career in education and ended her career as an assistant superintendent and went on and got her Doctorate in Education wasn't able to pursue what she thought she wanted to do early in her career.
It's one of the many reflections I hope to share today and hope this leads to a good conversation on a very important day to celebrate - International Women's Day. So thank you.
Nicole: Thanks for sharing that, Lisa, just to piggy back on, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks to everybody for inviting me to share some of the research that I've done and some of the experiences I have had as a woman, particularly in the sport industry, which is a very male-dominated field as well.
One thing I didn't mention earlier in my bio is I'm from Texas originally. You might have thought that from all my degrees through Texas A&M. I played golf there in college, then professionally for a while. One of my early thoughts of gender differences were, when I graduated, I had been pretty successful. I was number one on my team, I had won tournaments, then people talk about this notion of should you turn professional or not? I was like, I'll get a job. I don't know. I never really thought of myself that way. Then I had my, with golf, you practice a lot with the men's team as well. I had friends of mine on the men's team that never qualified to play on the team, but yet they were going to a qualifying school because they were going to be professional athletes.
And that was my first notion of, "Why is it I think one thing and these guys think another thing type of situation?"
Fast forward, College Station is not the prettiest place in the world to live. When I graduated, I just said, "I want to live somewhere pretty," so I moved to Vale, Colorado. I was going to work on the golf course in the summer and the mountain in the winter, even though I had never seen snow. But that was my plan and, through that, I met this member and he was a member in another course as well. He was like you should come play with me. You played golf, blah, blah. I ended up playing, if there are golfers on the webinar, I shot 62 the day, playing with
him, which is a very good score. He owned a lot of businesses. He became my sponsor - he said you need to play professional golf, and he had all these folks that owned companies that became my sponsors to play professionally, because you need money to play professionally.
It was my first time in my life where it started a trend where if people see something in you, you should listen to them. I think a lot of times, women don't see that, particularly in leadership positions where they should take risk. One overarching theme that I might keep coming back to is when people notice something in you, believe them and follow those pursuits. I'll shut up for now.
Ashley: No, I love it. Thank you both for giving us that background and how you got started. I would love to go ahead and jump into some of the questions that we have curated for you all and learn a little more about your experiences in your respective fields.
As Lisa mentioned, you both are in historically male-dominated fields. My first question is to Lisa. What inspired you to pursue this career in finance, economics and what challenges have you faced in this field as a woman?
Lisa: Thanks, Ashley. I guess I knew early on that I liked math and I wanted to help people. So, I'm not sure I ever knew that I wanted to grow up and be a CFO or a Vice President of administration and finance. And something Nicole said just resonated with me.
I feel like my career has benefited from mentors of mine that I met along my career that saw something in me in skill and really encouraged me and sometimes put me in positions that challenged me in ways that I really needed to stretch to achieve. I give them a lot of credit for believing in me and seeing in me something I maybe didn't see in myself.
The second part of the question was challenges I have faced. I think that I'm not sure that I ever fit the image of what has traditionally been thought of as a CFO. I have experienced, during the course of my career, which has now been more than three decades, comments like, "You don't look like a CFO," or I had one person say to me, "Where did you come from?" I thought, "Where did I come from? I came from my mother, just like you did."
Right, things that really put you on your heels. I do think, I'm sure in this webinar, we are going to talk about progress because I do think there's been a tremendous amount of progress. I have seen it, I have experienced it in the three decades I have been professionally working. I still do encounter things that make me still shake my head, like when someone meets me for the first time and all they have seen is my name on an e-mail or piece of stationary with a very big title. They look at me and they say, "Oh, you're Lisa Calise."
I'll stop there and let Nicole speak, but there are lots of challenges along the way that I'm sure we'll get into in more depth.
Nicole: Yeah, sure. How I got into academia and where I wanted to be - I played professionally for a while, got injured, then needed a real job. I thought I would work in college athletics. That was a love of mine, so I started working there. And to bide my time, they had a great program where I could get a Master's degree at the same time as doing that, that they would pay for that.
That's where I started learning about - I took a diversity in sport class - and I started learning more putting the concepts and the things that were tickling in the back of my head - or maybe I noticed, but I brushed off - seeing those patterns within sports that bothered me that I wanted to see change. I thought that academia could be a path for me to do that.
Also, when I was working for the athletic department, I was on the search committee for a coach for one of our Women's Team, and I remember the associate AD came in to lead the charge for the committee and we had done all of this work, all these applicants had come in - I was second year. I had diligently taken all the notes. I was so prepared and he starts the meeting by saying, "I just want to start the conversation by saying we are not going to hire anybody that is a lesbian or looks like a lesbian."
At that moment in time, I was like well - and as a person that also identifies as a lesbian - I was like, whoa, I wouldn't be qualified for the job according to this guy. It was also at that moment that I was like I can never express who I am in this culture, in this organization.
Through those experiences, I thought we've got to do more work, to do more research to show these things that are happening within organizations so that we can make a change. That's when I kind of switched gears from working in athletics to saying I'm going to pursue my Ph.D. and study these things and hopefully teach the future leaders in these organizations so they won't be like that individual I had.
That was an early on thing that I... on why I got into it. And then challenges that I faced while being here, I would say kind of to Lisa's point too, especially, I have always had these chubby cheeks - they've always... my whole life, so I have always looked twelve years old. Now I look older now that I'm in my 40s. I definitely look older, but, starting out, there was a lot of people that, I'm in my office and they act like I shouldn't be there. That I should be a student, and not a professor.
Even now when I had developed a reputation - my expertise is in quantitative methods. I'm never thought of. It's always men that are thought of. And that's typically more STEM type of work. They would go to my male colleagues that don't know those methods and ask them to guest lecture in a class. They would say, "I think you need to ask Nicole."
Just the noise you deal with sometimes each day.
Jacquie: So there is a question. A follow up question to that. How do you handle these disparaging remarks like that?
Nicole: Oh, there's a variety of ways, some more healthy than others, I think.
[Laughter from panel speakers].
One thing, I have... I am a firm believer in having a strong support system where I am and generating that squad that I call it at work. I'm lucky at UMass Amherst, in the sport department, to have both incredibly strong women advocates for me and incredibly strong male allies as well. I will lean on them as well, when I'm angry and different things like that. When I want to just vent.
Now, if things that are said that... I'm not a person that shies away from addressing those things. I'm also a person that's a believer in the call in, not the call out. I might not do it in the moment, in front of a group, but I will schedule time for that person in their own office or walk across campus where I can say, "Hey, when you said these things, Just out of curiosity, what was going through your head? Why did you just assume it wasn't me who was the quantitative person so we can be on a more... so they don't go on defensive, to have a more open, more inquisitive conversation about why that bias might have been there.
Ashley: And Lisa, how would you say you have responded to, these preconceived notions that people have about you, just from seeing your name?
Lisa: I think, much like, Nicole, I also developed a squad and a support network. That has changed during the course of my career. I had a mentor early on, one of those individuals who I credit to how I have gotten the experiences I have in my career, who used to say to me, "Hey, Lisa, don't ever let them see you sweat."
So I have developed an ability not to react in the moment or a poker face, whatever you want to call it. Much like Nicole, I figure out ways to have those conversations maybe at a different time. It is very hard at in moment.
I sitting here thinking about one of my worst moments. During my tenure at the city of Boston, in a very difficult economic time when we were trying to adjust budgets downward and I happened to be in a very large conference room with the mayor of Boston at the time, with a department head sitting across from me in a very heated back and forth about what a funding level should be. That individual, who was a male, decided that what he would do to try to put me off my game was to, you know, slam his hands down on the table in the middle of the meeting and look across the table, sitting directly across from me, and say, "Do you talk to your father that way?"
I feel like I remember the moment like it was yesterday, thinking, "Are you kidding me?" I leaned back across the table and I said, "Yes, I do. Yes I do." There are moments in time where that reaction in the moment is so important based on the exchange we have just had and there are other times where there's reflection and, after the fact, a conversation like Nicole mentioned.
Ashley: I think that's definitely, in my experience, it's a skill that you build over time. You know, I think, naturally, we want to be defensive and, give the same energy that we are met with. I definitely think that's a skill you can build over time.
Piggy backing off that, how would you say that you have been able to build this poker face or ability to react to things in an appropriate time?
Lisa: So I'll start and I'm sure Nicole can add here. For better or for worse, I think that at this point in my career, I probably walk around expecting people to be dismissive of my years of experience and qualifications to have the position that I have. So you walk into a lot of situations expecting that to happen. And you build that over time.
I do hope for the future women leaders that come after me that there's less of that that is needed because I do think there are comments or interactions that women face in the workforce that men do not. I guess, I hope that answers your question, Ashley, but I think right now I have trained myself to be prepared.
Jacquie: And just a couple of follow up questions. First, you had some great support for your comment about, "Do you talk to your father like that." Some great responses for that so good for you, Lisa, on that. I think this question was geared towards Lisa. Has that trust in your support system been broken? How did you handle that and bounce back?
Lisa: I'm not sure if I fully understand the question, Jacquie. My support network has changed just as I move jobs, right. but some of them remain the same. I, much like Nicole, have a squad of individuals who I turn to, one of which is my husband, who often will remind me that that is not, that I should not respond or react or not question something because I'm a woman. He will challenge me often to think differently and so I use him as a sounding board, but I have other folks I use as well. My support system has been - I have been fortunate that throughout my career, I have had incredible, I like the word Nicole used, squad, that I turn to for support and the ability to vent to.
Nicole: I might be able to talk on that. I have had one person in my squad that I felt like betrayed me at one point in a meeting. It was a very contentious thing I was going to bring up. I prepared him because I knew I was going to have resistance to some of the more traditional older guard. Academia is a very hierarchical place. I knew I was going to have that resistance. I was very clear before the meeting, when my voice stops, when you stop hearing me, I need your voice to start immediately. You are their guy. You are their boy. Just start talking.
So I stopped talking and he was silent. Then I started being attacked by the people that I knew - I was prepared that was going to happen, but I thought I had put everything in place. I'm a pretty passionate person, in general. I'm very authentic with who I am. I think people know who I am. Generally in meetings, I'm very composed, so in the meeting, I was like, "Okay, here we go."
After the meeting, he went to his office and I followed him to his office. And I was probably louder than need be when I said, "That was betrayal. I told you exactly what to do. You didn't that."
It's probably not the best way, but I wanted him to know in the moment how it impacted me. Then we had a very open and honest conversation. I don't want to let too much grass grow to where now -- I know he's a good person. 98% of the time, he starts talking when I quit talking. He just had a moment. We are all on different journeys but I couldn't let it pass too much time where he didn't know how I felt or I let my anger build up to a point where maybe we don't come back from that.
If it is a trusted person, know why they are a trusted person. People make mistakes. Have that difficult conversation with them and then grow from there.
Jacquie: Thank you. I'm going to hand it back to Ashley. We are going to hold on a couple of these questions until later on in the session. Go ahead, Ashley.
Ashley: Thank you, Jacquie. And thank you everyone for the questions. Please continue to fill them in.
Nicole, this question is specifically for you. I know you talked a little before this session started about the Women's National Soccer Team and WNBA team. They both provide an example of how women's experiences and perspectives are often overlooked in decision making processes despite consistently -- specifically the Women's National Soccer Team - despite consistently outperforming the men's team and bringing in more revenue, they were paid significantly less than the men's team and that reflects a long-standing bias and under valuation of women's contribution in sports.
How can we ensure women's experiences and perspectives are taken into account in decision making processes, not only in sports, but all sectors and industries?
Nicole: Sure, and thanks for that question. I kind of want to take a couple steps back to what we said earlier about building up a resistance to this treatment that we have. The mere presence of those women on the field, on the court, that is an act of resistance.
Our sport system - it was made for and by men. It was never a place... I mean they told women early on they couldn't do it because they might not get pregnant if they played, so it's been a constant historical look at how women enter these spaces that have particularly been orchestrated just for men. Through that active resistance of just being there, they have built up a capacity to be advocates for change, particularly with the WNBA. We saw after Michael Ferguson and they were prepared for 2020, right? The NBA players followed the WNBA players lead on how to be advocates.
Now to your question, specifically, I can go off on these tangents. Of the women's national team, I think what we learned from them is one: have women in the room when you are talking about these things, right? When you are negotiating contracts. If it was just one side, that's not incorporating the opinions, the values of women, then it's going to be a little bit shortsighted.
That's one thing. Also, just to when you have them in the room, listen to them, listen to their opinions and what they have. Also, not to -- to know that you can always fight for more. Like, the women were given more money when they re-negotiated their contract, but they weren't given fair money. They said, this is not great, thank you. I'm not going to bend over backward because you gave me this extra money here. It's still not right. We are going to take action to get it right, to where it needs to be. Know that women have that power and that voice.
Just some other things is they had the receipts. They brought the receipts, right? It wasn't just a moral case they were bringing. They were like, we have done this, that and the other and these folks haven't. Unfortunately, in work organizations, we have to bring the receipts. Our employers, our bosses, sometimes, they are not looking around, keeping a tally of everything we do. Sometimes we have to let them know, "Hey, just so you know, over the past six months, I have taken on these projects and came to these outcomes. We should talk about our discussion of my value in this corporation."
There's that kind of notion to keep in mind. Then, for the Women's National Team, also just they were part of a larger story that was going on in society. They were coming off the Me Too movement. Women are talking about this. You have more women graduating with degrees now than are men. They are entering the workplace. You are seeing that pay gap narrow in many fields. There's still in certain fields a much larger pay gap and certainly with leadership positions, a large pay gap, but women know that the momentum is building. Right? This isn't just a moment. This is a movement. We are going to see it play out in a variety of ways for gender equity for women in various industries, I believe.
Ashley: I agree. I think even with social media, I think, as much as sometimes it gets a bad rep, it also helps with furthering those points. I can't remember which tournament it was for, but we could see how the men's team had this beautiful facility, they had great food and the women's team, they just had, here is a snack chart or something like that. So I definitely think social media has also helped with that. Have you seen, Dr. Melton, where social media has helped in equity and equality with women in sports?
Nicole: Yeah, I think social media can amplify the power of storytelling and what people have experienced. This isn't just me. This isn't what I have experienced. This is a system-wide event that is happening.
The example you gave earlier, Ashley, it was just a student athlete in the NCAA Women's tournament that said, "This is our gym." And it was just a couple of weights and a yoga mat and the guys had this huge display of all the weights you could ever want. And she said, "When we asked the NCAA, they said we didn't have enough space." So then she spanned out to this vast amount of empty space. "Here is the no space they are talking about." Within hours, Dicks Sporting Goods and other apparel industries were coming to the Alamo dome and dropping off gym equipment for them. Amplifying the story. People didn't know this was happening. Now they have been able to change that story.
Another example is when you look at college softball, it's very fun to watch on TV. It gets a lot of high ratings as well and it exceeds the ratings of men's baseball. But they get these awful times where they have to play two games a day, then the next day, they play another game. Where the men get a month to play their tournament.
And so through social media this past year, building off what happened with the NCAA tournament, building off of the momentum of the women's national team in soccer, these coaches were like, this hasn't just happened; we have been dealing with this for 30 years. Now, they have changed the scheduling. If you didn't have social media, those issues wouldn't be highlighted.
To use not a sport example, we have seen women be a lot more transparent in the pay that they have. We just now know what we never knew. Now we know what to ask for.
Ashley: I agree. A lot of - I have seen either in the city of Boston or other organizations, that focus on how to ask for more pay or pay transparency, and things like that. Thank you for sharing that, Nicole.
Jacquie, I think we have a question. I know we talked about bringing your receipts.
Jacquie: Yes. There's a question from Preethi Lodha. With women being asked to bring receipts, I feel women leaders are over worked and under recognized. What can an organization do for equity in recognition?
Nicole: One thing that I say is when you -- a lot of thoughts on this. Mine's a little different with academia and the awards we get based on research or based on teaching. A lot of the things that we say that we value, right? Is there a gendered lens to what we are saying that we value?
For one thing, sometimes people will say, "Oh, you have to have every..." we do publications, right? Everything has to be a first author publication. A lot more men have first author publications than women because they have been able, historically, to only focus on their work, when women have had more responsibilities at home or men are more likely to say, "Hey, I'm going to be first author on this paper." And women who might do first author work but they are like, "I'm fine with being second author."
Why would we value something we already know has baked in bias into how we are seeing this? When we evaluate who is contributing and not contributing -- or who should be acknowledged for their contributions, it's not just on the woman. You don't want it to be that. You want it to be more reflective of your organization, of are there reasons why - if it's all men in the room - that are determining why someone should get a promotion or not - Is it because that person did exactly what they did and they look like them and got the same degree as them or do you have a more diverse representation on that committee that's saying, "Hey, we should look at these other attributes." Just because they didn't get here the same way we did, doesn't mean they are not equally
as deserving of these awards.
Lisa: Yeah, I was just going to piggy back on what Nicole just said. I think diversity of whatever the team is that's reviewing, whether it's a promotion or an award. I also think that there's more advocacy that women need to do for themselves and for other women. That, I think hopefully, again, I think there have been -- we are moving in the right direction. But, our work is not done here. I think more of what we have been talking about needs to continue. I also, I guess the other thing I would say is that, I think it's important for people like Nicole and myself, who hold leadership positions, to use our voice.
I spent a lot of time thinking about the difference between intent and impact. I hope we get to a point where there's no intent but there still may be impact. I think that when I find questions that need to be raised, I raise them, because I don't know that everyone thinks about the impact that they are having and how they are administering something or moving something forward. There may not be intent there.
Nicole: Exactly, Lisa. And one way I see the intent versus impact is, when we are thinking of people for positions, I hear a lot more about it being like, "Well, I don't think she can do that right now because she's got a lot going on at home."
A women is never asked if she wants to take that on. The man is always given the option to say yes or no, where as sometimes, in those conversations, the women is never asked.
Lisa: You are right. I do think that the dimension of balancing work and home and the way in which people still perceive or think about that is still a challenge that women face in leadership positions. I completely agree.
Ashley: Thank you both. Alright, moving on to our next question. I think you both touched on this a little bit already, but historically, gender equality and equity is often framed as a women's issue, with the burden placed solely on woman to advocate for themselves and advance their rights. What role can men play in advancing gender equity and how can we engage more men in this movement?
Nicole: I think, going back to the Women's National Team, the men's team said "This is not right." And they were very vocal about that. When you have men who hold power, positions of power, they need to use their voice. I think sometimes we -- there are -- I'm astounded by - I have a lot of great guys around me that want to promote gender equity. Sometimes they might not feel it is their place or they should say something. I always nudge them in the right direction. These are issues that are everybody's issues - be it men, nonbinary folks. We've got to - What is the saying? The tide rises, everybody rises. We want to all work together. I think just talking to the men.
I teach a class called "Women in business." Last year, half of my class were men. They have an appetite and desire to learn about these issues and really contribute to the conversation in meaningful ways. On that end, sometimes as women, we have to invite them into the conversation as well.
Lisa: Couldn't agree more, Nicole, I actually think I want to take your course. I do think that, I want to focus on the positive. I think there are plenty of men that understand why diversity is important in a conversation and they welcome it. They are not threatened by it. I think we need to continue to encourage more of that conversation, especially among folks that understand why it is so important to have a diversity of views and conversations.
Nicole: One kind of funny story from one of my past students - he was debating whether to take one job or the other. I was like, "What was your deciding factor?" He was like, "the team I'm going to work for is all women. I knew I could count on them to get the job done." He knew he would be pushed and they were going to work hard. He said, "I want to work with people that are just as motivated as me," so he went with the all-women team.
Ashley: I hear that same thing a lot, Nicole. Women, they get the work done, they just do it. I definitely agree, just opening up those conversations. Opening up space as well, not just a women's issue.
Lisa: And also, I think - sorry Ashley - but I also think that again, these conversations are good for organizations because it forces reflection. I don't know if all men think of themselves as being able to be an ally. They may need to understand that they can function as an ally and being an ally is an important role for them to play. I do think asking them or being more direct for them to participate in that way is a helpful thing.
Ashley: Good point, Lisa. You don't have to be a woman, you don't have to be a certain person to be an ally, whether it's a gender issue, equity or racial. You don't necessarily - you don't need to be, you don't need to identify as that to be an ally. So thank you for reiterating that. On the flip side, how can women support each other in this movement? Are there any resources available or networks that you both are aware of that could assist with this purpose? How can we support each other?
Lisa: So small scale stuff for us in the President's Office. For me, personally, is to make sure that I make myself available for conversations and consultation and just be available for those discussions and advice. I think that's one way. And to be approachable.
I think the other thing that I am very conscious of is, again, just because I have a big title doesn't mean I'm not just a normal person that likes to horseback ride and likes to bake and is frustrated by some of the same things that everyone on this webinar is frustrated by. I think having conversations like this. Again, I applaud the DEIA team for actually pairing me up with Nicole. I think this is fantastic. It just helps people broaden the way in which they think and may reflect either during the conversation or after the conversation.
There are certainly plenty of networks. You mentioned the Eastern Association of College and University Business Officers. You know, most of these professional organizations have women networks, right?
I guess the other thing that I think is important in thinking back about something we talked about - about advocating for yourself and not underestimating your value and feeling comfortable in approaching conversations or having conversations or introducing yourself to folks that aren't like you is also important because it then allows those relationships to build, for folks to understand your value, who you are, and it helps someone that may not have thought differently, think differently.
It's that diversity of thought and engaging that diversity of thought by doing things that may seem difficult to do. If you are at a networking event and it's not a women's networking event, go and approach someone who looks nothing like you, probably doesn't have the experience you have and try to engage them in a conversation. All of that is sharing, and I think growth for us as a society.
Nicole: Yes, similarly, I think there are a lot of different, particularly in higher education, there are a lot of conversations around this. There are different groups you can join. I think we are all busy and sometimes we don't... we might just delete that e-mail or just not really engage in those opportunities.
I'm an introvert by nature so it's a struggle for me to network and to put myself out there. Every time I have been part of those organizations or gone to the meeting, I was nervous about going to, I have always grown through those experiences, met great people. It's through those relationships and connections that I think we, again, we learn things we didn't know, we get the support we may need in certain times or just a cheerleader at other times. I think they are invaluable.
One we have is HERS - Higher Education Resource Services. It is a way, it really showed me - one of the big things is it gives you support. You work on a project, a leadership project that you want to see on your campus, then you are connected to all of these women that have come before you and they can bestow their knowledge on you. It's invaluable to have that support system.
And to also just compliment what Lisa said is I constantly advocate or tell my students, tell my peers, you have got to assess your network at all times based on what is the knowledge that your network is bringing you. What is the demographics of your network?
I ask, generally, four questions. Who do you talk to the most? Who do you trust the most? Who do you know the most about? And those are typically who you advocate the most for. So if your network is a lot of people that are just like you or might just look the same, you are advocating for those same people all the time. You have to expand it so that you learn new people and think about them when these different positions are becoming available.
Ashley: Thank you for sharing that. I know we have some time. We have quite a few questions, actually, that I wanted us to get to that everyone has posted. Please continue to post any questions you have. I'll let Jacquie take over for our Q&A.
Jacquie: Thanks, Ashley. I'm going to go in order. What are you empowered to do in your role at UMass to invoke equity, equality in the workplace?
Lisa: So Jacquie, I should let you answer that. I would say, for me, in the President's Office, that probably has lots of dimensions to make sure that all of our hiring processes and promotion processes -- that we make sure they are fair and equitable. As Ashley did my introduction, I oversee HR and Jacquie is part of the HR team. I feel very good about the way in which we approach that and the additional transparency we continue to build into those processes. Again, I think as a member of the president's senior team, I get to use my voice to make sure that diversity of thought and opinion is brought into conversations - policy conversations that I participate in.
Nicole: I would say the way that I have been empowered is folks as high as our Chancellor and Provost have asked my opinions on different programming we have or different ways that we look at curriculum, student recruitment and retention. Those sorts of things.
They are constantly searching for ways we can improve. They are casting a wide net to try to get opinions on how we can be better at UMass Amherst. Within Isenberg School of Management, I chair our DEI Council for faculty. So all issues related to faculty Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belongingness. We are a pretty autonomous group. We get to come up with ideas.
So far, the Dean said yes to everything that we wanted to implement. That's been great to have that. We have great leadership here at UMass Amherst from... particularly starting from the Chancellor's office with Subbaswamy and also with Dr. Walker, who is in her role as well. They constantly look for our advice and will try to implement the things we say. There's never a no, we can't do that type attitude.
That's one reason - I told you all I'm from Texas. That's the reason I stay up here in the cold, because I have such great support that will push boundaries, challenge the status quo based on what we are thinking about and kind of like the boots on the ground, so to speak, to see what's happening and how we can make these incremental changes.
Ashley: Nicole, you mentioned you are from Texas. Did all of your education in Texas - how would you compare your experience being in New England, Massachusetts to Texas?
Nicole: Oh, Ashley, how much time do you have? I love Texas. It took Dr. Walker, who is in the -- to get me here. She was already here. We have known each other in PhD and I wanted to work with her. There's just a more openness to conversation. It's not you are met with resistance and how do you overcome resistance in conversations. Certainly, we have that at times. It's more, we understand these issues are here. How can we address them? How we talk about them?
I think that would be one thing. One other thing is the tacos are much better in San Antonio, where I'm from. That's been an adjustment for me there. Everything else is just a welcome change in terms of my students are very open to these conversations.
At our school of management level, I teach all majors an introduction to diversity and inclusion in business class. It started as an elective. It's an elective right now. It's required next year. 80 students signed up. We had max capacity. So there's an appetite to learn about these things So that's been great. And I don't want to disparage Texas, but I'm happy to be up here in Massachusetts.
Ashley: Congrats on your course.
Nicole: I was going to say, on the empower one, that's another thing, you know, I came to my department and I said I want a diversity and inclusion in sport class. They were like okay, create it. I had to create it but I was empowered to do that. Dr. Walker and I were like we think we need it at the college level. And they were like, okay, create the class. Yeah, it has evolved so lots of good momentum happening.
Jacquie: Thank you. So the next question - Often, we experience imposter syndrome and have negative inner thoughts, especially early in our careers. What advice would you give about that?
Lisa: I think it's believing in yourself, right? I do think that, again, I think Nicole and I have both shared that we each have our own support squad which oftentimes you can talk through some of those doubts. And I think that's what I would say.
I think everyone faces that. There are plenty of situations that any person has had during the course of their professional work experience where you think back and doubt what happened or how you interacted or whatever it may be. And that may cause a spiral of thoughts. I think giving yourself time and space and also a support squad to think through exactly what you are feeling.
Nicole: Yeah, I agree completely with Lisa. I would also say that I kind of learned this from the Women in Business class - when I had those guys, they also struggle with imposter syndrome, but they push right on through. They are very confident. So I would tell you to push through those things. I know it's hard, but like Lisa said, having the support structure is key.
There's a reason why the research is very clear, when there's a job posted, women will only typically apply if they have got 110% of those qualifications listed. While men will shoot off that application if they have got 60%
of qualifications there. We have done a really good job in society of building up men and telling them to pursue their dreams. I think we need to follow that lead and say we have got just as much right to push ourselves, even if we don't have every box checked on a stretch assignment - to go ahead and do it. Take that job and see what you can do.
Jacquie: Thank you. Great advice. So this question is directed towards Nicole. Can you speak to the rise of anti-trans rhetoric in legislation against trans women and trans men in sports and how to create a more inclusive space for trans athletes and people of all genders.
Nicole: Sure. Speaking of the reason I'm happy to be in Massachusetts than Texas - the policy wedge they've create... I think this issue has been used as a political wedge - that they have tried to garner votes on in various states.
You kind of see that, my political science colleagues would be much better at articulating this - of how this is something that they can draw a lot of emotion around, get people to vote around with ill-informed information on trans inclusion.
And I want to say - a lot of these policies are on children. These are targeted at children. There is no basis of segregating based on assigned at birth sex until maybe the age of 14. So it's silly we are talking about 5-year-olds at this time.
To speak more broadly on how we can create more transgender inclusion - one thing is just be inclusive in general. For bathrooms, why don't we have just single-use bathrooms that everyone could use regardless of their gender identity they have, so it's not something that somebody might feel singled out with in the locker room. It's just how the locker room is now designed.
That you have stalls that people can use versus just these shower heads that are there. I don't think anybody feels comfortable with that. I certainly didn't when I was a kid. Right, back in the day.
So that's little polices that we can think more gender inclusively about. For how we think about transgender inclusion in sport is, again, the same thing. For 4-year-old, 5-year-old, even older soccer, why do we need boys soccer versus girls soccer? Why can't we just have soccer? That's all that's really got to be in place.
For track and field, why do we have to segment? It's so silly that we segment based on biological sex. Why aren't we segmenting based on your ability? If you run the 50 in this time range, this is the grouping you are going to be in. Golf example - we don't need a women's tee and men's tee - we just need tees based on skill level.
Also, very specific in sport is how we can do it. I would say the rise in anti-trans sentiment also stems from a sexist sentiment. I have never seen so many people that have never advocated for women sports until we said trans women could compete -- now they are coming out of these different holes to say "Oh, we have to protect women." They are not protecting women -- they are excluding trans women from our sports.
Jacquie: Thank you. This is directed to both. Why do we need more women in leadership?
Nicole: I'm kind of fired up on transgender inclusion so I can just keep rolling with this.
First of all, I think, represents 50-51% of the population. Why not have that representation in leadership position? When you look at Fortune 500 companies, there's more men named John and James than there are women in positions -- I think that's a problem -- that hold that position. I think we should reflect the society in which we live.
Lisa: Yeah, I mean just diversity of approach, diversity of thought. I agree with what Nicole said. The problem is not the pipeline. When we look at the number of women graduating from college. I think we also need to do more to advocate for ourselves. We need to believe in ourselves and put ourselves out there the same way men do.
We think about things in a way that -- we were trained to set expectations for ourselves which are very different than the way men think about themselves and what they can achieve. I think it is just -- it is an important composition to the way in which decisions should be made.
Jacquie: Thank you. This next question has been answered somewhat so I'm just going to ask it, if there's anything else you would like to add. In your opinion, do women need to prove themselves more so than men in the workplace? For instance, volunteer for roles and responsibility above and beyond? How do you provide receipts of this without being deemed as braggadocious or self-serving?
Lisa: Just repeat the first part again, Jacquie.
Jacquie: In your opinion, do women need to prove themselves more so than men in the workplace?
Lisa: I would say that during the course of my career, I think it has been or has gone down a bit but it still exists. I do, again, I think it goes back to, for me, what's that image of the person that should be sitting in my chair? I definitely was put through tests early in my career before I was named CFO of the city of Boston where I -- I'm trying to think how I should describe this. I was socialized with major male business players in the city of Boston to see if I could meet the task.
I have to say that if I were a man that was being considered to be promoted or appointed to the CFO of the city of Boston -- I think I was the first female CFO of the city of Boston -- they were not put through those same tests. Now, that was back after the turn of the century. I don't -- I think, I guess I think things are better. I do think that women are often tested more than men for the same role.
Jacquie: Thank you.
Nicole: Even if they have the same qualifications, those qualifications are critiqued at a harsher level than the men. Even, I do think it is getting a little better but even when women are valued they have all this other crap they have to do, too. Like they have to be, a lot of times you'll see they will have to show they can hang with the guys as well. They are having to negotiate all these different spaces that they have to prove to people that not only do they have the qualifications, but they belong in various ways.
That is exasperated more if we are talking about women of color and what they are expected to show why they should be able to be in those spaces or not. I think it's maybe not that you have to prove that you are there, they know you should be there, but it's all the, like, the whole fit. Do you fit with us in these different things that should not be part of the conversation. I think we still have more education to do within our organizations to recognize the accomplishments that people have.
On the braggadocious part of that question, I just recently learned this in the past three years -- that a lot of men I know, they are very comfortable advocating for themselves for awards and asking people to nominate them for the awards. So I don't think you should feel bad at all asking people to nominate you for awards that you should have or saying I think I'm good for that award.
That is something that I don't think is -- it's not very comfortable for me to do. I haven't seen any backlash from women doing that as well. Just knowing that is something that happens. I certainly did not know that is something that happened, until now that I am on these committees and I see people advocating for themselves.
Jacquie: Thank you. What is the best piece of career advice you ever received?
Lisa: Oh boy, Nicole, do you have one off the top of your head? I may need a minute to think it through -- career advice I've received.
Nicole: I recently received some advice from my partner who said you have to -- you have regressed a bit and you have to do a better job of learning when to say no. If you over extend yourself trying to prove that you are there and you should be there and taking on all these responsibilities, you lose yourself sometimes. You are too busy to do the things you truly care about and to truly make an impact.
I think really learning how to form those boundaries has been key in this part of my career.
Lisa: I'm not sure if this is the best piece of advice but it's something that came to the top of mind when we were talking about this. Someone once said to me, and I think it's based on the nature of the organizations I have worked in, which tend to be large, public, bureaucratic -- not necessarily in the bad sense -- is to keep my eye on the ball, in that there is a tremendous amount of noise and know that the noise is there and you have to understand the noise but keep your eye on the ball.
I also think that was good advice for me as a rising woman leader because I needed to do the work and I needed to prove and show people that I had the skill and the experience to do the job, right? Not that people were not talking about things or there were other things in the air, but I was able to keep myself focused.
You can not ignore the noise. You need to know it is there, but you got to keep your eye on the ball.
Ashley: I wanted to maybe add my own perspective, if that is okay. Nicole, you talked a little about women of color and as a Black woman, sometimes, I'm sometimes, often the only woman in the room or Zoom. I am often the only person of color or Black person in the room and sometimes I'm the youngest person in the room and sometimes I'm questioning myself of -- Do I belong here?
I immediately stop that. You belong in every single room that you are in. There is never a mistake. Step inside the rooms you do not think you would often be invited to or you do not feel like you belong there.
I just wanted to add that piece in there. That's something, I'm still pretty early on in my career, but that is something I always try to keep and carry with me no matter where I am. Just you belong everywhere. Everywhere.
Jacquie: I love that, Ashley. Thank you. Have you ever had conversations with President Meehan about inclusion or empowering women in general? Can you summarize how those went?
Nicole: I can be quick, because I have not. I know he has had them with Nef and in Nef I trust.
Jacquie: In Nef I trust. I love that.
Lisa: I have had conversations. I would say some of those conversations were personal about me that I'm not willing to share, but they were very positive conversations for me and reflections. And actually, it was about me using my voice in some actions on behalf of others that may not have had intent but had impact. He was incredibly supportive.
Jacquie: Great. What's your International Women's Day message to young women entering the work force and in general?
Lisa: I guess I was just thinking of my daughter who is 9 years old, right? She is not ready for the workforce, thank goodness. It really is about, there are no limits, right? There is no conversation, no room that you can not be part of and that you should never be afraid to advocate for yourself.
Jacquie: Very nice.
Nicole: I would say -- the world is a wonder -- be curious. Be curious about all the different things that you can pursue and then be courageous to follow those that you see. And to amplify what Ashley just said -- know that you belong in those spaces.
Jacquie: Good advice. Many women experience bias not only because of their gender, but also because of their race, sexual orientation, a disability or other aspects of their identity. This compounded discrimination is greater than the sum of its parts. What can organizations do to recognize and remedial these compounded discriminations?
Nicole: One thing is just to be aware of it. I mean, not just go to your default. When you think woman, a lot of people default - think able-bodied white woman. Know what your defaults are and what you go to and then how can you be more inclusive in your mindset to understand the experiences of other folks.
Kind of building off what we have said in previous conversations today is you have to talk to people that do not just look like you. That don't just look at the default that you have. To really understand those experiences, and to know that if you never talk to somebody that is different from you, you are never going to learn their experiences and what you can do to remedy those in your organizations.
Jacquie: Thank you. Which women inspire you the most and why?
Nicole: I have two right now. Well, my mother, first of all. She is an amazing woman who started her own company when she was 55 years old. She is 71 now and still working. You know, loving her job. So her.
But then from a more sport, two women I really admire. One: Serena Williams. She is just simply the goat for what she's done on and off the court to just basically get people out of their defaults on what a woman tennis player looks like, what she can say, what she can do and how she can change not only her sport but her greater society.
Second for women's basketball fans - Dawn Staley. She is the head coach of South Carolina women's basketball team. She is just pushing, pushing us to be better in all ways. I love her for that and also that she rocks a hoody to work. I love that about her, too. She is unapologetically herself.
Jacquie: Love it. Lisa?
Lisa: So the first person that came to my mind was my mother as well. You know, can't say enough good things about the lessons I learned from her as a young girl.
Then the second person that popped into my mind is a former colleague of mine from Perkins School for the Blind, a woman by the name of Kim Charlson, who has been the long standing head of the braille and talking book library for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. She is a legally blind from birth woman who is known internationally for all that she has done in her field. She actually, during my tenure at Perkins taught me a lot about what it is like to be a blind female in her profession. I just think about some of the lessons and take aways from someone who has done so much with her disability to help the world. She was the second person that came to my mind.
Jacquie: Thank you. Is there a role for mental health in the workplace? Would this help overcome imposter syndrome?
Lisa: I want to kick that to you, Jacquie.
Jacquie: To me? I think there is a role for mental health support, regardless of where you are at. Even just in the workplace, in schools, in everywhere.
Obviously, it's a big health crisis now. There's always a role. I do think it would help, no matter what industry you are at. That was me, unprepared to answer that question.
Lisa: Yeah, I agree with you.
Jacquie: Yeah. Dr. Melton, with some states moving to limit the impact of DEI programs in public universities, how could you make an elevator pitch, 60-second speech to a stereotypical cis heterosexual white male politician who has not had to face any hurdles on the impact DEI programs can have?
Nicole: This is -- I don't know if I could change hearts and minds in 60 seconds, particularly in some states.
How I would probably approach it is simply asking -- I don't know, there's so many ways I could go about it. Trying to look for a shared sliver of experience and what values we have. How I -- if I could do it in a minute -- we all want to get where we want in a society and career and try to recognize it.
Okay, I am going to start over. I would probably start with this - as you all know, I am a golfer, right? Try to appeal to the white man. He probably golfs, too. Cisgender guy.
When I was young, I spent every day at the golf course practicing. I worked incredibly hard and I got a full-ride scholarship to Texas A&M. Do I think I deserved that? Of course I did. I worked hard. Did I have every advantage to try to get me there? I had two parents. I didn't have to work. They let me go to the golf course every day. I had two parents that instilled in me that college was just year 13 of school. It was not an option. It was a place that I was going. And they sacrificed for me to do that. Now does that take away from my accomplishments? No. But do I know I had a few steps up the ladder that allowed me to get there?
Now if I had not come from a two-parent guardian household, if I had not come from a socioeconomic status upbringing, to where I could have done that, those would have been two steps or three steps down that would have impacted mine.
I just want to make sure we are all going to be on a -- try to get on more of an equal footing to where we need to be.
Jacquie: I think that is a great speech. Do either of you currently mentor anyone? Any advice to someone who would like to mentor people?
Nicole: Lisa probably has more experience. I'm going to let her talk first.
Lisa: I actually -- I do. I do not know that I want to -- I do not know that I want to share all the people that I'm mentoring but there are plenty of people that I'm mentoring. What was the second part? I actually love talking to young professional women. What was the second part?
Jacquie: Any advice you would give somebody who would want to mentor someone?
Lisa: Advice for someone who wants to mentor someone?
Jacquie: Yes.
Lisa: I think you have to be willing to reflect and be able to share. Most people that are looking for a mentor are looking for that support system and also insights into certain experiences and how they may steer or navigate both positive and negative experiences. You have to be willing to be a little vulnerable because you have to share.
Jacquie: Great.
Nicole: I would add, I mentor junior faculty in my department and I feel like the evolution of the professor role is become more of a mentor to our students in a lot of ways.
Some things is to understand, to reach out, and express that. I think a lot of people want mentors and they do not know how to ask or they do not know who -- As Lisa said, be approachable. Let it be known that you are there as a mentor and a source of support.
Things to consider are the time commitment that might involve. You need to weigh that. To be there for somebody else, you got to first be there for yourself. Keep that in mind.
Then the final thing I would say is that I view mentorship as an action to where not only am I a source for support but I want to advocate for those folks as well. Being ready and willing to advocate in the right times for them.
Jacquie: Great. In what ways have you seen improvements throughout your careers?
Nicole: My Dean is a woman. Our senior leadership team is majority women. That is something rare and unique and wonderful in my opinion that I have not seen.
I have seen other women, they lift other women up. You definitely, that's been a change I have seen in my life.
Lisa: I would say that over the course of my career, seeing more women in roles that I have either had or have now than were previously in those roles.
I do think that there is a lot more openness to that diversity of thought by having women leaders than when I first started. I think that's all positive.
Jacquie: Great. What is the biggest issue women in technology business are facing today? Have you seen progress at your work at UMass?
Nicole: Sorry, can you repeat that?
Jacquie: Sure. What is the biggest issue women in technology business are facing today? Have you seen progress at your work at UMass?
Lisa: I think we have answered the progress part, Jacquie. I'm not sure I can speak to the biggest issue that people in technology business are facing, but I think historically, it has also been a male-dominated field. I think, I'm not familiar with the statistics or the data to know if that has actually moved over time. I think our UITS function in the President's Office, which serves the university is a little less than 50% female. I don't know what that was historically.
Nicole: I do not know necessarily the biggest issue. You are seeing greater numbers of women in entry level, mid level. You are still seeing this ceiling where they are not reaching the top level that they want. Kind of understand why that is.
One example is a bias that people might hold. There is a lot of people in a room and they are thinking about -- they might have a turnover problem. You see turnover -- a high number of turnover in late 20s, early 30s for women. They immediately associate that to women want to have babe -- their biological clocks are ticking, they want to have kids, they leave the workplace and do not come out of that. They might just use that as their decision making.
If they look more holistically at that data, they will see that men in their late 20s and early 30s are leaving at the same amount of time, at the same rate as the women. If they were look -- collect the data a little more diligently, they will see it is because they are leaving for a competitor, to make more money. It is nothing about a biological clock. It is a stereotype that we hold, that we just go to -- "Yep, that confirms my bias," and they don't look for women in these positions.
I think making informed, data-driven decisions would help organizations a lot as we move forward.
Jacquie: I think we have time for one more question, then I will turn it back to Ashley. Do you have any recommendations on how to teach equity inclusion to our sons without inadvertently dimming their light?
Nicole: I think just be awesome. If this is a woman that said that -- your example is an example to your son of the importance of equity and inclusion. That they see women in these positions. That's the biggest lesson they can learn.
Lisa: Yeah, I would say, my daughter, who is in third grade, nine and in the third grade, she doesn't know anything but equity and inclusion. I do think that both from the curriculum she is experiencing and also just the environment at home, right? She doesn't see any limits on what she can do.
She does have some good friends who have stay-at-home moms, but, again, have diversity to just experience in town. They are seeing professional women, professional men, and there are really -- they see this as choice and, there is no limit on what they can do or where they should go. I do think the environment, I think there are less stereotypes, but I do think there's, again, always room for better conversation that is being had.
Nicole: I would just add on that just a little -- There is this great Ted Talk by Vernā Myers where she is talking about racial justice in our society after Michael Ferguson. And she said, "Look out and seek great black men."
We have an association in our country -- we say, "Black bad, White good." You have to actively disassociate that and look at our wonderful Black men and women in our society so you form a new opinion. Same with women, men, any type of diversity mentioned -- form those positive associations. Expose yourself to those.
Jacquie: I love that. Thank you. Ashley?
Ashley: Thank you, everyone, for all of your wonderful questions. Amazing session. Learned more about Lisa. Learned more about Nicole. The experiences you have had over the span of your career as a woman and any kind of stereotypes, and anything like that.
Before we end, I have a round of thank yous and just some things I wanted to say to wrap up this session.
First to our speakers, Nicole, Lisa, thank you, thank you for taking out time in your day to not only meet with us today but beforehand. And respond to all the emails. We truly appreciate it. Hopefully we are able to have you back next year for International Women's Day. Continue to keep up the good fight in your respective fields, sports management, finance. We really appreciate you being here today.
A special thank you to our event coordinators -- Kerri, Kristina, Maria, Jacquie, Yara, Megan, everyone involved in all of the International Women's Day events that we have today, Friday, and Monday.
Lastly, thank you to the IT gurus, John, Ryon, Julie, for prepping us and making us feel comfortable with using Zoom and talking to everyone, even though they can see us and we can not see them.
I want to just end today's session with some final words regarding equity. I was perusing the International Women's Day website. I thought this was a great quote to end this and round everything off. It says, "When we embrace equity, we embrace diversity and we embrace inclusion. We embrace equity to forge harmony and unity and to help drive success for all. Equality is the goal, and equity is the means to get there. Through the process of equity, we can reach equality."
So again, thank you to everyone. Thank you to our panelists for joining us. Happy International Women's Day.
[Panelists say thank you simultaneously].
Ashley: Thank you all. Have a good day!